tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9174025374821038087.post4799734830730070633..comments2024-01-29T17:51:55.608+00:00Comments on Nige's Diet & Nutrition Blog: Lies, damned lies and statistics, part n+1. Riera-Crichton et al.Nigel Kinbrumhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03368973941328529619noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9174025374821038087.post-90531767683227138992014-07-14T01:36:20.619+01:002014-07-14T01:36:20.619+01:00I don't care about protein. It's an irrele...I don't care about protein. It's an irrelevance.<br /><br />Any population study that shows that fat is slimming when it's not, is a crock of shit.<br /><br /><br /><br />And, for that last sentence, welcome to my Black List.Nigel Kinbrumhttp://nigeepoo.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9174025374821038087.post-77479465002090568062014-07-14T01:30:47.735+01:002014-07-14T01:30:47.735+01:00"Actually I'm busy reading how weight did..."Actually I'm busy reading how weight didn't go up with fat intake in another study you linked to - Kasper et al."<br />It went up eventually - after much "glowing". Please don't misquote.Nigel Kinbrumhttp://nigeepoo.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9174025374821038087.post-22909373978432387962014-07-14T01:29:15.642+01:002014-07-14T01:29:15.642+01:00Hardly. Some things went up a lot in grams. Other ...Hardly. Some things went up a lot in grams. Other things stayed constant in grams and some things varied a little in grams. The rest remains the same.Nigel Kinbrumhttp://nigeepoo.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9174025374821038087.post-87613559821683889902014-07-14T01:20:00.954+01:002014-07-14T01:20:00.954+01:00Bray was an over-feeder. End of comparison.
Skip t...Bray was an over-feeder. End of comparison.<br />Skip to the bit in R-C where they discuss correlation of protein with "overweight", i.e. BMI, vs. "Obesity", i.e fat mass. Does that seem wrong like the wrong conclusion to you? <br />If it's not, and it's derived by the same formula as the other results, why doubt those?<br />It is morning here, but some are still in the dark.Georgenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9174025374821038087.post-87926391489355695352014-07-14T01:17:45.365+01:002014-07-14T01:17:45.365+01:00Actually I'm busy reading how weight didn'...Actually I'm busy reading how weight didn't go up with fat intake in another study you linked to - Kasper et al. <br /><br />R-C is statistical epidemiology, it's as much use as any other statistical epidemiology - not seen any of it rationalise the obesity growth in a population yet. Bray appears to demonstrate that fat is fattening in the presence of high carbohydrates, don't have any problem with that. It isn't clear to me what R-C are using yet -grams or % or what.CynicalEngnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9174025374821038087.post-64028643264765201622014-07-14T01:03:41.398+01:002014-07-14T01:03:41.398+01:00R-C et al is a crock of shit - and you know it. Th...R-C et al is a crock of shit - and you know it. The LC & VLC world is positively creaming themselves over it because it confirms their beliefs - that carbs are fattening and fat is slimming.<br /><br /><br /><br />Bray et al showed a strong positive correlation between excess kcals of (virtually all) fat grams (depending on which protein group you're talking about) and fat mass. <br /><br /><b>Fat grams went up. ∴ Fat %E went up and fat mass went up. ∴ Fat is fattening</b>.<br /><br /><b>Carb grams were constant. ∴ Carb %E went down and fat mass went up. ∴ Carbs are slimming</b>.<br /><br />Are you going to argue about irrelevances all night?Nigel Kinbrumhttp://nigeepoo.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9174025374821038087.post-81843480269621850792014-07-14T00:30:19.082+01:002014-07-14T00:30:19.082+01:00R-C is just a massive maths exercise on long term ...R-C is just a massive maths exercise on long term trend data, it isn't an experiment. The examples given to explain the impenetrable maths may fix the calories. When they say "on the margin, a 1% increase in carbohydrates intake yields a 1.01 point increase in obesity prevalence over 5 years while an equal percent increase in fat intake decreases obesity prevalence by 0.24 points" do they mean 1% increase in grams per day per head or a shift from 45 to 46 E% - I think the former, possibly adjusted to constant calories. The lack of units in the paper makes it difficult to tell.CynicalEngnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9174025374821038087.post-17306370480367131282014-07-14T00:11:34.679+01:002014-07-14T00:11:34.679+01:00Indeed, so your maths might need a bit of a rework...Indeed, so your maths might need a bit of a rework.CynicalEngnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9174025374821038087.post-26281627860613228912014-07-13T23:24:22.199+01:002014-07-13T23:24:22.199+01:00Riera-Crichton et al also measures increased fat. ...Riera-Crichton et al also measures increased fat. And increased protein. Have you read the full-text?<br />Your comparison would be more meaningful if the two papers were heterogenous in some way, but they seem to be as far apart as diet papers can get. Overfeeding is an artificial state; of the multitudes included in Riera-Crichton et al., no-one was instructed by the authors to overeat.Georgenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9174025374821038087.post-85181589332578913502014-07-13T22:26:06.198+01:002014-07-13T22:26:06.198+01:00Irrelevant, George.
Riera-Crichton et al had incr...Irrelevant, George.<br /><br />Riera-Crichton et al had increased carbs, which decreased %E from protein & fat.<br /><br />Bray et al had increased fat, which decreased %E from protein & carbs.Nigel Kinbrumhttp://nigeepoo.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9174025374821038087.post-26521104858646742362014-07-13T21:29:46.989+01:002014-07-13T21:29:46.989+01:00Riera-Crichton is free-living populations over lon...Riera-Crichton is free-living populations over long periods of time. Bray is a sall group of volunteers being overfed in a lab for a short time. There is no reason why the results of these two studies should correspond. Can you not find a closer analogy to what Riera-Crichton have done than the Bray paper?<br />Oh, I meant to say, "et al.".Georgenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9174025374821038087.post-38339611536160232052014-07-13T18:40:55.023+01:002014-07-13T18:40:55.023+01:00That's interesting. The Table data suggests th...That's interesting. The Table data suggests that the weight-stabilizing diets for all three groups were the same composition. From the text:-<br />"After consuming a weight-stabilizing diet for 13 to 25 days, <br />participants were randomized to diets containing 5% of energy from <br />protein (low protein), 15% (normal protein), or 25% (high protein), <br />which they were overfed during the last 8 weeks of their 10- to 12-week <br />stay in the inpatient metabolic unit."<br />So, although the energy surplus was from fat only, <b>the number of fat grams varied as the number of protein grams varied. The low protein grams group had more fat grams than the high protein grams group</b>. That explains why the high protein group had lower than expected fat mass gain vs kcal surplus. That's a bit naff.<br /><br />I thought that the weight-stabilizing diets were 5%, 15% & 25%E from protein for the three groups. Realisation dawns. Cheers!Nigel Kinbrumhttp://nigeepoo.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9174025374821038087.post-65816869854584123072014-07-12T20:30:10.403+01:002014-07-12T20:30:10.403+01:00It's in the text - twice.
Anyway, I'm ou...It's in the text - twice. <br /><br />Anyway, I'm out for the night, so I won't be responding again 'til tomorrow.Nigel Kinbrumhttp://nigeepoo.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9174025374821038087.post-71667486782923803792014-07-12T20:14:32.656+01:002014-07-12T20:14:32.656+01:00Not according to the tables in the supplementary m...Not according to the tables in the supplementary materials. The main text says "participants were randomized to diets containing 5% of energy from protein (low protein), 15% (normal protein), or 25% (high protein), which they were overfed during the last 8 weeks of their 10- to 12-week stay in the inpatient metabolic unit. Compared with energy intake during the weight stabilization period, the protein diets provided approximately 40% more energy intake" and they were all on 15% to start with. Certainly not extra fat only.<br /><br />See also the Protein g/day row in the Table in the body - one down, two up.CynicalEngnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9174025374821038087.post-53220451671818102452014-07-12T18:45:07.047+01:002014-07-12T18:45:07.047+01:00Whatever baseline P & C grams were for each su...Whatever baseline P & C grams were for each subject was held constant during overfeed. Overfeed kcals came from Fat grams only.Nigel Kinbrumhttp://nigeepoo.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9174025374821038087.post-46459178056884678562014-07-12T18:17:08.123+01:002014-07-12T18:17:08.123+01:00but varied from baseline ?but varied from baseline ?CynicalEngnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9174025374821038087.post-18138995534818145492014-07-12T17:55:25.761+01:002014-07-12T17:55:25.761+01:00Protein varied between groups. The protein in each...Protein varied between groups. The protein in each group was held constant.Nigel Kinbrumhttp://nigeepoo.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9174025374821038087.post-30962074687381806112014-07-12T17:46:57.781+01:002014-07-12T17:46:57.781+01:00Protein grams did change in the Bray study, only c...Protein grams did change in the Bray study, only carbohydrate was constant at 330g per 2200 cals. It's in the supplementary docs as a table.CynicalEngnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9174025374821038087.post-69681113282536231312014-07-08T00:10:17.427+01:002014-07-08T00:10:17.427+01:00NVM. He emailed me. It was a misunderstanding. Twi...NVM. He emailed me. It was a misunderstanding. Twitter is useless for holding meaningful conversations, 140 characters at a time.Nigel Kinbrumhttp://nigeepoo.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9174025374821038087.post-59199881985512121142014-07-07T20:37:59.054+01:002014-07-07T20:37:59.054+01:00How that? Like none of them are like, um, food?How that? Like none of them are like, um, food?MacSmileyhttp://macsmiley.tumblr.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9174025374821038087.post-9381266139875256382014-07-07T18:55:20.606+01:002014-07-07T18:55:20.606+01:00I don't think that it even got that high.
I s...I don't think that it even got <b>that</b> high.<br /><br />I see that someone on Twitter has criticised my Bray analysis on the grounds that the P, C & F data are unrelated. Duh?Nigel Kinbrumhttp://nigeepoo.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9174025374821038087.post-23233976306662837952014-07-07T18:46:54.223+01:002014-07-07T18:46:54.223+01:00So does the Riera-Crichton study "rise" ...So does the Riera-Crichton study "rise" to the level if junk science?MacSmileyhttp://macsmiley.tumblr.com/noreply@blogger.com