Friday, 8 June 2012

A comment, a simile and insanity.

A lot of my recent titles contain three items.

1) The comment: I'm just about to leave the following comment on Peter (Hyperlipid)'s blog post Insulin and the Rewards of overfeeding. I thought that it was so good at summing-up, I'll post it here first!

"All,

Insulin increases the amount of glucose & FFAs entering fat cells, muscle cells & the liver.

Insulin decreases the amount of glycerol & FFAs exiting fat cells & the amount of glucose exiting the liver.

Hyperinsulinaemia (which can produce sedation) results when one or more of the following tissues loses insulin sensitivity:- fat cells, muscle cells & the liver.

So, why do people keep saying that hyperinsulinaemia locks nutrients away in fat cells only, thus robbing other cells of nutrients, thus causing lethargy?

The relative insulin sensitivity of tissues determines the relative partitioning of nutrients into those tissues.

When tissues lose sensitivity to insulin, blood glucose control becomes impaired. This results in roller-coaster blood glucose levels after eating high-glycaemic carbohydrates. A rapidly-falling blood glucose level causes ravenous hunger. I have experienced this during medically-monitored tests (OGTTs & an insulin shock test).

Low-carb/ketogenic diets don't result in a roller-coaster blood glucose level and therefore don't cause ravenous hunger. Simples!

Overeating due to ravenous hunger is NOT gluttony, just as under-moving due to sedation is NOT sloth.

THIS is gluttony."

EDIT: This didn't go in my comment but should have:- "Low-carb/ketogenic diets result in the avoidance of moreish & calorific foods such as sweets, chocolate, cake, biscuits, pizza, Pringles etc. A single bite of such foods has a negligible effect on blood glucose & insulin levels, but encourages another bite and another and another ad nauseam, due to Food Reward.


2) The simile: I use similes. I used the simile "As happy as a pig in shit" in a comment somewhere on Woos blog. Now, you may (or may not) have noticed that my user-name is Nigeepoo. We Brits are obsessed by two things - The weather and our bowel movements. I find things to do with poo and farting amusing (schoolboy humour, I know!). I used the simile "As happy as a pig in shit" because it is amusing.


3) The insanity: According to Woo in the following comment:-
"Re: the comment...Sorry, not convinced.
You are basically refusing to admit your choice of words implied moral judgement. The phrase "happier than a pig in shit" is always applied to examples of people being content in immorality/bad behavior particularly gluttony and sloth... unless it is used ironically. Only an autistic or a non-english speaker would believe this crap."

Woo, you are as mad as a March hare. IMO of course, like everything I write. Duh!

12 comments:

praguestepchild said...

Nigel, great comment. I'm pretty happy to see Peter blogging again. Especially when he gives Stephan a well-earned drubbing.

I don't think woo is insane so much as a product of an entitled PC culture where being 'judgmental' is a crime by the thought police. It's just another form of fascism. I'm going to be judgmental myself and say that she's an obnoxious cunt. How's that for judgmental?

Nigel Kinbrum said...

Did you see Woo's blog post My sister is insane?

I've saved it to my hard disk for posterity, as I think that it won't remain on Woo's site for very long, especially if somebody tells her sister what's in it!

There's a well-known expression containing the words kettle, black and pot.

I think that you're being a little harsh in calling Woo "an obnoxious cunt". Despite my lay assessment of her mental faculties, I like Woo. Some of her blog posts are spot-on.

praguestepchild said...

Don't be jealous, Nigel, you are still the most obnoxious cunt in the blogosphere ;)

No, I don't think it comes from a position of insanity, I think it comes from a position of fascist PC-ism, and I despise that stuff. You were being "judgemental" because you used a common simile? Yeah because it's not important what you wrote but what you were thinking, and you were thinking sloth. It was totally implied. It was a dog whistle simile.

I don't read her blog. I once made a somewhat critical comment and she attacked me as a 'cyber-bully' and said I was a nobody and she would never read my blog and a lot more silly non sequitar stuff, so I stopped reading. I'll save my time for blogs where people don't get hysterical when you disagree with them, even if they are socialist assholes ;)

Here's hoping that Peter starts posting more regularly.

Nigel Kinbrum said...

praguestepchild said...
"Don't be jealous, Nigel, you are still the most obnoxious cunt in the blogosphere ;)"
Sean, sometimes you say the sweetest things! :-D

"...Yeah because it's not important what you wrote but what you were thinking, and you were thinking sloth. It was totally implied. It was a dog whistle simile."
I was actually thinking "poo", as per usual.

"I don't read her blog."
That's a shame, because in-between the insanity is some good stuff.

As you won't click on the link that I sweated blood to insert, here's an "Oh my!" quote from her post:-
"-A times she will demonstrate abject recklessness. She has engaged in prostitution, with strangers. She will meet random strangers go to their apartment to do drugs..."
As Lyle McDonald would say... "Bat-shit crazy". Oh, look. Another poo reference!

"I once made a somewhat critical comment and she attacked me as a 'cyber-bully' and said I was a nobody and she would never read my blog and a lot more silly non sequitar stuff, so I stopped reading. I'll save my time for blogs where people don't get hysterical when you disagree with them, even if they are socialist assholes ;)"
I won't stop reading Woo's blog, no matter what she calls me. I'm not banned from posting comments there - yet.

I have to admit to feeling uncomfortable arguing politics with you, as I agree with you on loads of other things. Politics is like religion. No matter how many brazillion words we exchange, I will continue to believe what I believe and you will continue to believe what you believe, you libertarian arsehole ;-p

"Here's hoping that Peter starts posting more regularly."
I agree.

praguestepchild said...

"I have to admit to feeling uncomfortable arguing politics with you, as I agree with you on loads of other things. Politics is like religion. No matter how many brazillion words we exchange, I will continue to believe what I believe and you will continue to believe what you believe, you libertarian arsehole ;-p"

I know, that's what I said at the beginning, but then we got caught up debating our religions anyway ;)

Still, no harm, no foul. You have your paradigm and I have my obviously correct paradigm and as long as things don't get too circular I think its a net gain to air our beliefs.

Kate Ground said...

Woo? Really? Must look this person up. When my daughters were little, we jokingly taught them their vajay jay is called a woo woo. Hmmmm

Nigel Kinbrum said...

Hi Kate,

See The Scribble Pad

What's your opinion?

vajay jay made me lol. You are allowed to say vagina (and lots of other things, if you read the preceding comments) on here!

Over here, I think that mothers use foo-foo.

Nige

john said...

Nigel,

Is your main point that low carb works because it prevent blood sugar swings?

Who says that insulin locks nutrients in fat cells only? Most people who regularly read Hyperlipid probably have a pretty good understanding of what happens.

There are interventions that cause selective IR. Glutamine in rats has been shown to increase adipocyte IR but decrease it in skeletal muscle. High fat diets usually cause "insulin resistance," but perhaps it is mostly in adipocytes: in the 5% protein study, obese mice lost excess fat; in other studies I've seen, adipose rises then declines over time, while low fat keeps adipose relatively stable.

The "foods" in those studies are annoyingly (for interpretation) low quality though, so overall health/longevity/etc isn't clear.

Regarding Woo, if you challenge her, what do you expect? Don't take things like that too seriously. Her blog is really good, though I don't really comment on her personal stuff.

Nigel Kinbrum said...

john said...
"Nigel,
Is your main point that low carb works because it prevent blood sugar swings?"
Partially yes. Low carb also works by eliminating hyper-rewarding foods like sweets/chocolates/Pringles etc. One sweet/chocolate/Pringle has zero effect on blood glucose & insulin, but it's usually followed by another, and another, and another....ad nauseam. That's Food Reward at work, not blood glucose or insulin.

"Who says that insulin locks nutrients in fat cells only? Most people who regularly read Hyperlipid probably have a pretty good understanding of what happens."
Several people. It's their explanation for "lack of energy" after eating carbohydrates. I think that even Peter proposed it in earlier blog posts.

"There are interventions that cause selective IR. Glutamine in rats has been shown to increase adipocyte IR but decrease it in skeletal muscle. High fat diets usually cause "insulin resistance," but perhaps it is mostly in adipocytes: in the 5% protein study, obese mice lost excess fat; in other studies I've seen, adipose rises then declines over time, while low fat keeps adipose relatively stable."
Did you just mention rodents? Rodent studies are worthless when it comes to weight change, due to a rodent's ability to dispose of food energy by converting it to heat in BAT and then losing the heat by changing its behaviour to increase heat loss.

"The "foods" in those studies are annoyingly (for interpretation) low quality though, so overall health/longevity/etc isn't clear."
I don't think that health/longevity/etc was of interest in those studies.

"Regarding Woo, if you challenge her, what do you expect? Don't take things like that too seriously. Her blog is really good, though I don't really comment on her personal stuff."
I don't take what she writes seriously. I agree that there are some gold nuggets in her blog. It's a shame that she spoils it by completely dismissing FR because it doesn't apply to her. She also keeps adding (her) emotional motives to statements of facts like "people eat too much and move too little".

john said...

As you know, I have several problems with food reward: first, the idea provides no insight because it is measured post hoc; eat less of the foods you eat most is the only implication. Second, it disregards "calories out" and the huge discrepancies of fat storage between individuals. Third, and as a consequence of the second, it makes no attempt to understand the *ultimate* cause of fat storage; as I have said before, lung cancer is not ultimately *explained* by cigarettes' addictive properties. Now if "reward" could somehow be measured as an inherent food property, it would have some use.

I just meant that people are aware of different tissues and IR in them. Yes, the fat being locked away is a common idea. Actually it may be that adipocyte insulin signaling is better correlated with and predictive of fat storage than insulin levels per se; the LIRKO mouse and jnk mice are examples of that.

I don't think rodent studies are worthless. Humans can have vastly variable metabolic rates and fat oxidation rates as well (methionine restriction). So they cannot dissipate heat as fast, making the gold thioglucose FIRKO mouse somewhat unrealistic, but other mechanisms could be relevant, like reduced appetite and increased activity. Gut bacteria/absorption are important too.

Regarding your comment on Hyperlipid about insulin and bodybuilders, they *do* gain much fat (and muscle) from insulin injections. This is an interesting piece of information because bodybuilders are often overfeeding long term, hence no excuse about insulin-induced hypoglycemia appetite. This does not happen when overfeeding on test enanthate or especially winstrol. Weight gain and fat gain is less than when combined with insulin (of course there is no "official" record of calorie intake, but I assume personal reports of bodybuilder perfectionists are pretty reliable).

Nigel Kinbrum said...

john said...
"As you know, I have several problems with food reward: first, the idea provides no insight because it is measured post hoc; eat less of the foods you eat most is the only implication."
But "eat less of moreish calorific foods (e.g. sweets/chocolates/Pringles etc) in order to lose weight" is good advice.

"Second, it disregards "calories out"
FR is about what goes on in the brain, so it's not concerned with CO. I don't see that as a problem. CI indirectly affects CO via TEF & changes in NEAT/SPA.

"and the huge discrepancies of fat storage between individuals."
NEAT/SPA & partitioning varies a lot from person to person so I don't see that as a problem either.

"Third, and as a consequence of the second, it makes no attempt to understand the *ultimate* cause of fat storage;"
Should it? The body either stores an excess in fat mass, muscle mass and/or the liver, or it stays in circulation causing damage (e.g. diabetes).

"as I have said before, lung cancer is not ultimately *explained* by cigarettes' addictive properties. Now if "reward" could somehow be measured as an inherent food property, it would have some use."
I don't see why FR must be quantified for it to be valid. It's effect on feeding behaviour varies from person to person. It's apparently zero for Woo. It's significant for me. Is the effect of insulin on hunger quantifiable? I expect that that also varies from person to person.

"I just meant that people are aware of different tissues and IR in them. Yes, the fat being locked away is a common idea. Actually it may be that adipocyte insulin signaling is better correlated with and predictive of fat storage than insulin levels per se; the LIRKO mouse and jnk mice are examples of that."
As I said above, fat/glucose in circulation has to be removed from circulation to prevent it from causing damage. The more active somebody is, the more fat/glucose in circulation ends up in muscle mass and the less in fat mass.

"I don't think rodent studies are worthless. Humans can have vastly variable metabolic rates and fat oxidation rates as well (methionine restriction)."
When you feed a sedentary person, unless they then increase NEAT/SPA or TEA, their metabolic rate will only increase by TEF.

"So they cannot dissipate heat as fast, making the gold thioglucose FIRKO mouse somewhat unrealistic, but other mechanisms could be relevant, like reduced appetite and increased activity. Gut bacteria/absorption are important too."
I don't think that kcals consumed by gut bacteria makes much of a difference, as the heat produced by them is compensated for by reduced heat produced by the body.

"Regarding your comment on Hyperlipid about insulin and bodybuilders, they *do* gain much fat (and muscle) from insulin injections."
This is probably because the BBers who happen to be injecting slin are trying to fast bulk. Fast bulking results in significant fat mass gain as the rate of muscle mass gain is limited.

"This is an interesting piece of information because bodybuilders are often overfeeding long term, hence no excuse about insulin-induced hypoglycemia appetite."
BBers on a fast bulk are deliberately overfeeding, so their appetite or lack thereof is irrelevant.

"This does not happen when overfeeding on test enanthate or especially winstrol.
Test shifts partitioning towards muscle mass and away from fat mass. Winstrol increases metabolic rate & fat-burning, IIRC.

"Weight gain and fat gain is less than when combined with insulin (of course there is no "official" record of calorie intake, but I assume personal reports of bodybuilder perfectionists are pretty reliable)."
Injecting slin allows an increase in food intake, as it shifts stuff from circulation into tissues faster.

Nigel Kinbrum said...

Correction: In FIRKO mice, Peter said:-
"At the moment, for FIRKO mice, it looks like an open question as to whether gold thioglucose VMH lesions really increase appetite directly or increases thermogenesis in BAT causing a calorie loss, with compensatory hyperphagia. You can imagine which option I think may be the case, but I do have certain biases."
It was about calorie loss causing hyperphagia (appetite increase), not tiredness. My memory ain't what it used to be!