Oh, wait.
I received a comment on another blog post mentioning Jeffrey M Friedman's commentary Modern science versus the stigma of obesity. I took offence to the following passage:-
"This simplistic notion is at odds with substantial scientific evidence illuminating a precise and powerful biologic system that maintains body weight within a relatively narrow range."
To say that I disagree with the above passage is an understatement of epic proportions. If this is the case, how can Extreme weight loss without surgery happen? This woman went from 265kg (583lb) to 97kg (213lb).
With the right diet, huge amounts of weight & body-fat can be lost and kept off. Lyle McDonald's Rapid Fat Loss solution is a PSMF (Protein-Sparing Modified Fast) that can produce huge weight & body-fat loss. See The Protein-Sparing Modified Fast (PSMF).
Up with this negativity I will not put!
21 comments:
Churchillian last sentence.
Heh-heh!
This is what the science shows, Nigel. Severe obesity is a disease state. Severe obesity is extremely genetic 88 % of it ( it is more genetic than ANY other medical condition, only height POSSIBLY surpasses it by a smidgen) , the rest being interactions with the environment.
Stephan and Dr. Sharma would CONFIRM this and the article.
Anthony colpo and Lyle McDonald are completely debunked by that article by on eof the foremost obesity experts in the world.
Progress in treating obesity will never be made until we move on from Hippocratic nostrums from 2000 years back in favor of 21 st century science.
The simplistic , incorrect nostrum "Eat less,and move more" is NOT a given. it's a research question at very best and that isoverly generous because it has been tested many times and DISPROVEN in the literature.
Dr. Friedman's article is an accurate representation of the science. The man is a GENUIS AND A PIONEER
Lyle McDonald and Anthony Colpo are conning you badly. Their businesses would fall aprt if the public were scientifically literate and looked to science to guide them rather than self appointed "experts" e.g. Internet guru salesmen.
Razwell said...
"This is what the science shows, Nigel. Severe obesity is a disease state. Severe obesity is extremely genetic 88 % of it ( it is more genetic than ANY other medical condition, only height POSSIBLY surpasses it by a smidgen) , the rest being interactions with the environment."
I completely disagree. Obesity rates have boomed since the 1970's. Our genes haven't changed significantly in those few years. Our environment has changed hugely and it's our environment that needs to be changed back. Unfortunately, the vested interests of food manufacturers won't allow that without a fight!
"Stephan and Dr. Sharma would CONFIRM this and the article."
I couldn't possibly comment.
"Anthony colpo and Lyle McDonald are completely debunked by that article by on eof the foremost obesity experts in the world."
If that's the case, then how come they have so much success with bodybuilders? However,
Bodybuilders =/= General Population
"Progress in treating obesity will never be made until we move on from Hippocratic nostrums from 2000 years back in favor of 21 st century science."
Progress in treating obesity will never be made until power is taken away from the food manufacturers. This will take a lot of political will-power.
"The simplistic , incorrect nostrum "Eat less,and move more" is NOT a given. it's a research question at very best and that isoverly generous because it has been tested many times and DISPROVEN in the literature."
I agree. Conscious caloric restriction never works. It has to be sub/non-conscious. However, there has to be caloric restriction for weight loss to occur. Moving more is about physical fitness. America's layout discourages moving more. It's easier in Britain.
"Dr. Friedman's article is an accurate representation of the science. The man is a GENUIS AND A PIONEER"
I disagree. He's overly-negative about weight loss in my opinion.
"Lyle McDonald and Anthony Colpo are conning you badly. Their businesses would fall aprt if the public were scientifically literate and looked to science to guide them rather than self appointed "experts" e.g. Internet guru salesmen."
They're not conning me as I haven't bought their books. They don't publish books aimed at the general population anyway. Their target audience is bodybuilders. With this particular group, they have great success.
"Moving more is about physical fitness."
Actually I think there's a metabolic advantage to exercise that helps one lose weight. It's not the calories burned but the effect on glucose cycling, mitochondria, etc. Especially for HIIT type stuff, but walking also helps. Also, packing on some muscle is going to increase the energy needed to maintain that muscle and allow one to engage in more strenuous activities that burn more energy.
Absolutely. I may have mentioned somewhere in my blog (!) that moving more increases muscular insulin sensitivity.
This reduces variations in blood glucose & insulin levels after eating carbohydrates.
This reduces post-meal lethargy resulting in sub-consciously moving more and reduces post-meal munchies (caused by rapidly-falling blood glucose) resulting in sub-consciously eating less.
Moving more increases muscle mass.
Win, win, win.
The statement that the genes cannot change is completely wrong. The way natural selection actually works is that it is MOST powerful over the short term.
Dr. Friedman addresses this common statement.
Obesity is extremely genetic. It has been tested over and over. Monozygotic twin studies , adoptin studies, familial aggregation studies.
Dr. Friedman knows what he is talking about and Stepohan knows that too.
This is bad for the bisiness model of Internet gurus for these pieces of gained knowledge to get out to the public.
Also obesity has not boomed. The average weight sgain is ONLY 7 pounds more today than 30 yeras back. With the ONLY difference being seen among the obese.
Dr. Friedman addresses all of this and I did to on my former blog. I cannot believe nobody looked at my references.
I have researched obesity for 3 years intensely from reputable sources. I know my stuff and can takle on McDonald any day.
Dr. Friedman is an AUTHENTIC represenation of current obesity science and recognized INTRERNATIONALLY as one of the world's very top geneticists studying obesity.
His discoveries, as well as Dr Douglas Coleman's completely SWTICHED the way we view this disease.
Well, I was going to say 'Thank you, Sir Winston', but some unspeakable cad beat me to it. :)
Other than, you're right and the troll - oopss sorry ; earnest seeker of the truth and rigorous debater - was wrong.
Razwell said...
"The statement that the genes cannot change is completely wrong. The way natural selection actually works is that it is MOST powerful over the short term."
The human race isn't controlled by natural selection. Premature & sick babies and sick/injured people are saved by modern medicine.
"Dr. Friedman addresses this common statement."
Pardon?
"Obesity is extremely genetic. It has been tested over and over. Monozygotic twin studies , adoptin studies, familial aggregation studies."
How come the Norwegian woman lost 168kg? Her genes didn't change.
"Dr. Friedman knows what he is talking about and Stepohan knows that too."
Stephan gave a lecture where he pointed out that people's food choices had changed drastically over a 30 year period.
"This is bad for the bisiness model of Internet gurus for these pieces of gained knowledge to get out to the public."
Colpo & McDonald don't sell books aimed at the public, so their business is unaffected.
Razwell said...
"Also obesity has not boomed. The average weight sgain is ONLY 7 pounds more today than 30 yeras back. With the ONLY difference being seen among the obese."
There are lies, damned lies and then statistics. I'm old enough to remember life 30 years ago and there were far fewer fat & very fat people around then than now.
"Dr. Friedman addresses all of this and I did to on my former blog. I cannot believe nobody looked at my references."
I believe that Dr Friedman isn't correct.
"I have researched obesity for 3 years intensely from reputable sources. I know my stuff and can takle on McDonald any day."
I've been studying Diet & Nutrition since 1997.
"Dr. Friedman is an AUTHENTIC represenation of current obesity science and recognized INTRERNATIONALLY as one of the world's very top geneticists studying obesity."
He's still wrong, though.
"His discoveries, as well as Dr Douglas Coleman's completely SWTICHED the way we view this disease."
So how would he cure obesity?
Well, damn that Lyle McDonald for laying out a wealth of freely accessible articles on the nature and impact of nutrition.
Heck, there isn't even much free-selling of ideas on his part: he simply discusses the effects of various strategies and closes.
His books, on the other hand, are for budding athletes and body builders. . . And still quite accurate and on the mark. I highly doubt that anyone who references him in discussions of nutrition specifically refers to those books when most of the actual research and discussion is available on the website.
And Stephan. . . Really? Are we talkin' about that decent non-loud-mouth dude who's written an excellent series in insulin resistance and promoted the palatability/food reward theory with regards to 'changing set point' of body fatness? He certainly keeps a distance from oversimplification, but has firm ideas about dealing with body weight issues rather than surrendering to this arbitrary fatalism of 'it can't be helped -- it's a disease.'
Funny stuff, this whole obesity being a genetic disease and all rhetoric, since the claim is valid, but doesn't apply to all the subjects who conveniently surrender themselves to such thinking. Recently, on an English show where these doctors visited various English towns with high rates of obesity, they attempted to investigate the various underlying pathologies and behavioural factors behind the rising rate of obesity in these towns.
During their fun little adventure, one of the doctors, who happened to be a very slim lady, interviewed this family of overweight individuals who believed they were genetically 'overweight' sine all of them were verging on morbid obesity. After putting them through the genetic testing, they actually scored much lower than the slim doctor on the genetic susceptibility to obesity. In fact, they scored on the very low end of the rating card. (A.K.A. they had no genetic risk factor for becoming obese. So perhaps it wasn't a gene so much as the meme of 'let's just eat all this junk without consideration'.)
This convenient obsession over getting caught up with the genetic fatalism regarding obesity has become a gateway for ignoring another very important factor: habitual tendencies and behavioural disorders. One can't just embrace one theoretical aspect of biology in understanding a physiological problem while completely tossing out all the cognitive factors that also contribute to similar issues.
"So how would he cure obesity?" -- Nigel Kinbrum
No. No. We'll just continue to believe that we're all doomed to our particular bodies and that anarchist aliens are probably laughing at how collectivised we've become; no need to consider the cultural and psychological factors -- that'd complicate things, and we don't like complications. Yeah, rational indeed.
"I disagree. He's overly-negative about weight loss in my opinion." -- Nigel Kinbrum
Well said, Mr. Churchill. In fact, the whole post and subsequent responses were ******* epic!
chmeee said...
"Well, I was going to say 'Thank you, Sir Winston', but some unspeakable cad beat me to it. :)
Other than, you're right and the troll - oopss sorry ; earnest seeker of the truth and rigorous debater - was wrong."
You double-posted, so I published the first one and deleted the second one.
The great advantage of having moderation is that I don't have to ban anybody. If somebody posts too many long replies or repeats themselves, I just don't publish the posts.
Jeez, Nige,
I see you you've now received attentions of the BESTest (or is it BEASTest?) troll on InterWebs!
You in illustrious company, Colpo, Stephan, CarbSane, FuckTheAnimal, now Ickle Nige hee, hee, hee!
You know I jest.
(Of course, he might prefer Wooooooo Hoo, then you'd be sorry!!!)
Enjoy.
Ars longa, vita breva.
(BTW, the lead banjo-player of The Dubliners died a couple days ago.)
I'm typing this on my Crackberry, so I'll keep it short.
I'd rather moderate-out repetitious posts than ban somebody for trying to leave them.
Both moderation and banning are forms of censorship.
Hi Nigel
Remember, Dr. Jeffrey Friedman ( internationally recognized by top scientists in the obesity field) is the real deal. All have super things to say. The guy is a pioneer.
These fitness hustlers are peddling nonsense.
Steohan Guyenet respects Dr. Friedman a lot.
I hope you enjoyed the lecture because that lecture accurately represents the current obesity science . I am assuming you had a chane watch it. ( But I understand if you did not because you are very busy)
No doubt the lecture completely contradicted the Internet gurus. The Internet guru fitness hustlers are pseudoscience.
I was talking to some doctors on yahoo answers and they said to me "Who the hell is Lyle McDonald and Anthony Colpo?" Then they said "Yes,of course I am familair with Dr. Jeffrey Friedman's research. He is the real deal, and among the very best out there."
And naturally the Docs on Yahoo had heard of Razwell's blog and agreed that Ol' Devil Raz is also the "real deal".
Dream on, Babe.
Hi Razwell,
I'm currently listening to (and watching parts of) the video, as I am very busy and it is a long video.
I completely agree with Dr Friedman when he says "it (weight loss) isn't easy". Unfortunately, I disagree with most of everything else he says.
Bodyweight is controlled by a large number of factors. I tackled a lot of them in my post Determinants of the Variability in Human Body-fat Percentage.
Most people haven't heard of Anthony Colpo and Lyle McDonald. That's because these guys work in the specialised field of Bodybuilding & Fitness nutrition & training, not obesity in the general population.
Dr. Robert Lustig is famous and has lots of YouTube hits. That doesn't make him correct, though. See A retrospective of the fructose alarmism debate.
Cheers, Nige.
Hi, Nigel
The scientific consensus is the information in Dr. Friedman's presentation. All the top obesity scientists in the field respect his work.
Certain things are well established:
*Morbid obesity is extremely genetic and childhood obesity even more so that adult ( which is already massively genetic)
* "Eat less move more " is a failure in studies.
*Morbid obesity is not a choice, but rather a disease/disregulated state
*Body weight is involuntarily regulated by extremely complex neural circuitry. The only thing we control long term is a relatively narrow range opf about 15 pounds.
This is well established from quality genuine science. Yes it is completely at odds with the Internet cranks, but nonetheless it represents the genuine science. It is the Internet cranks whose informatio is wrong. No serious scientist in the field recognizes the Internet gurus.
There are some minor things controversial in other areas of obesity research , but the bulk of the presentation is well established.
All of this is only controversial to pseudoscience promoting Internet crank gurus. ( like Anthony Colpo, Lyle mcDonald, Sisson and more)
Dr Lustig is a bit of a zealot.He is just an average endocrinologist who is extreme.
Comparing him to Dr. Friedman is not a good comparison. Dr. Friedman is a world respected obesity scientists and a GENIUS pioner. His research has revolutionized obesity science.
Dr. Friedman is cautious admits MUCH unknowns and vast uncertainty , just like Stephan Guyenet.
The Internet crank gurus are far, far, far too certain , admit NO uncertainties and are the antihesis of science.
The Fat Los "Bible". The name alone shows what a crank people like him are. There is no such thing as a fat loss "bible" Too little is known about about human physiology.
McDonald and Colpo are cranks who are fooling people . Thewy are not recognized by genuine scientists. Dr. Friedman is- in spades.
Take care,
Raz
Hi Razwell,
I was at karaoke, so I couldn't reply. I'm home, now.
Scientific consensus means nothing to me. There's a scientific consensus that heart disease is caused by consuming saturated fats & cholesterol. Meh!
I agree with Dr. Friedman that Childhood obesity & Morbid obesity (BMI > 40) have more of a genetic component than standard adult obesity (BMI > 30). However, there are babies who have been made obese by their mothers over-feeding them on manufactured sugary crap instead of breast-milk. This sort of infant obesity isn't of genetic origin.
As to body weight being tightly regulated:- I am maintaining a body-weight ~30lb below a value that I was at for quite a long time. How can this be?
I'd advise you to be more careful about what you write. Your written words may be construed as libel. Just sayin'.
Cheers, Nige
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