Having previously shown you what I look like on a diet of ~125g/day low-GL carbohydrates, here are a couple of recent pictures of Jimmy Moore, who's on a very-low-carb, very-high-fat diet (~85%E from fats), a.k.a. Nutritional Ketosis. It involves adding Kerrygold butter to just about everything, even eating sticks of it from a block. I'm not kidding.
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| I told you I wasn't kidding. |
From Google Image Search on "Jimmy Moore" OR "Livin la Vida low carb", images in the last 7 days:-
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| On 6.7.14. |
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| On 8.7.14. |
The only recent footage of Fredrick Hahn, is the following video from the Low Carb Cruise...
To my eyes, Nutritional Ketosis is good for absolutely nothing. Dietary fat can be stored as body fat, in the absence of dietary carbohydrates. Gary Taubes' claim "You can basically exercise as much gluttony as you want, as long as you're eating (only) fat and protein." is pure fantasy, not supported by evidence.
The low protein intake in Nutritional Ketosis, combined with the high serum cortisol that's almost inevitable on this way of eating, results in a loss of muscle mass. I give Nutritional Ketosis a thumbs-down.
Summary:-
1) No Energy Deficit → No Weight Loss. There is no Metabolic Advantage to Nutritional Ketosis. See http://www.jbc.org/content/92/3/679.full.pdf
2) Insufficient carbohydrate intake and insufficient protein intake starves the liver & kidneys of gluconeogenic pre-cursors, which raises cortisol, which converts muscle mass into gluconeogenic pre-cursors e.g. Glutamine, Alanine etc. This is standard Biochemistry. No links required.
3) While excess carbohydrates are converted into triglycerides by the liver, excess fats are converted into cholesterol by the liver, which is exported to tissues as LDL-C.
LDL-P ∝ LDL-C. High LDL-P is strongly associated with increased risk factor for CHD. See http://www.lecturepad.org/dayspring/lipidaholics/pdf/LipidaholicsCase291.pdf
CHD is not an inflammation-mediated phenomenon. It's an LDL-P and neovascularisation-mediated phenomenon. See http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3492120/
Postprandial lipaemia is atherogenic. See Ultra-high-fat (~80%) diets: The good, the bad and the ugly.
4) Read Page 10 of https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2013nl/feb/pritikinpdf3.pdf, starting from "Could such a cream meal precipitate an angina attack because the oxygen-carrying capacity of the blood is lowered?" It's an actual trial on humans with clogged coronary arteries. It's not a hypothesis.
5) Chronically-raised cortisol causes aggressive behaviour (cortisol is a stress hormone) and adversely affects short-term memory storage in the Hippocampus. See http://evolutionarypsychiatry.blogspot.co.uk/search?q=cortisol
6) Eskimos, Sami, Masai, Samburu, Tokelauans etc, get ~50% of their total energy from fats. There are zero populations that get ≥80%E from fats.
Update 25th July 2014: I appear to have rustled Fredrick Hahn's Jimmies. See https://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn/posts/10152227780827864
I can safely state that Fredrick Hahn is a liar (I am not poking fun at anybody and I have only blocked him (not his followers) from posting here, for a flagrant breach of my Moderation Policy on his first attempt at commenting), and intellectually-dishonest (for repeatedly mis-quoting me, and using other logical fallacies). He posted the above post knowing that, as I had blocked him on Facebook, I wouldn't see it. I only learned of its existence after a friend PM'ed me on Facebook Messenger. He instructed his "followers" to leave comments here and then accuse me of lying about white-listing, back on his page, because their comments didn't appear immediately. He's a real piece of work! From ABOUT ME:-
Moderation Policy: Comments from first-time & untrusted commenters are moderated ← (click for details). Please be patient. Now that I have a Smart Phone, I can publish your comments during the day when I'm away from my lap-top, but I prefer to type replies on my lap-top. Comments from anonymous commenters, containing links in any form, are deleted.
This is a function of Disqus, as it's impossible to retrospectively white-list a commenter who's never commented here before. There appears to be a severe lack of cognitive function in these people. I really can't think why that is ;-)
Why am I being so hard on Jimmy Moore and Fredrick Hahn? I don't know these people personally.
1) These people are making money out of peddling pseudoscience.
2) These people meet all the criteria in Guest post: Science versus Pseudoscience and have created an alternative science, where sky-high LDL cholesterol, sky-high LDL-P and sky-high postprandial TG's are not risk factors for CHD, but are either harmless or beneficial.
51 comments:
Even worse, to maximise ketosis, protein is also restricted. There is little muscle under that fat.
As Harry Enfield's "Only me!" character might say: I do not believe you are wanting to be doing that!
I'm wondering if prolonged ketosis induces psychosis. People must be delusional if they think that Jimmy is healthier on NK. :-/
Jimmy Moore on the 2012 cruise
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tc96Lk1VVS4
What a difference 2 years makes, eh?
I've embedded Fred's interview video in the above post.
Taubes [reportedly] claimed: "You can basically exercise as much gluttony as you want, as long as you're eating (only) fat and protein."
Nige said: "Dietary fat can be stored as body fat, in the absence of dietary carbohydrates."
The above recalled to me a claim made by Dr. Bernstein (back in 2005) that did not sound quite right:
"The reason that a low-carb diet can help you to become or remain
slim is tightly linked to the hormone insulin, which is the principal
fat-building hormone. The process works like this: The lower the
amount of fast acting or concentrated carbohydrate you eat, the
less significant is the increase of your blood sugar. The less
significant the effect on your blood sugar, the less of the fat-building
hormone insulin you will need...to stabilize blood sugar. With less
insulin at large in your bloodstream, fats you eat will not be stored
but metabolized (you will literally pee them away as water or breathe
them away as carbon dioxide)." [Bernstein. The Diabetes Diet.
(2005) p.20-21] [emphasis mine]
Breathing away &/or peeing away those sticks of Kerrygold?
Doesn't appear to be working as claimed...
See http://nigeepoo.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/how-low-carbohydrate-diets-are.html Last study is about ketone excretion. Maximum ketone excretion rate is ~1g/day :-(
I believed that Taubes was wrong back in Jan 2010, when I wrote http://nigeepoo.blogspot.co.uk/2010/01/i-have-theory.html I was very nervous about publishing that! Luckily for me, Evelyn soon took over as the main Taubes basher.
Well as the body can produce its own sugars through gluconeogenesis, then I can't see how it could be reasonably postulated that gluttony on fat and protein could work.
Exactly! Yet that is what Gary Taubes claimed and possibly still does. :-/
Sorry, slow Sprinternet. What's the Fred Hahn video here for?
I thought that Fred would be a big muscley bloke, from the bodybuilding he does. His physique looks average in the video.
Ah. Right. He's a physical trainer, or something, right? Concentrating on clients? Or is this Peter Attia's future?
You don't know who Fredrick Hahn is? He sells books on Super-Slow Training. Google him.
Wikipedia:
Super Slow is a form of resistance training popularized by Ken Hutchins. The term SuperSlow and derivative terms are registered by Hutchins as trademarks. (To avoid confusion, and avoid legal battles with former business associates, Hutchins has renamed his methods "RenEx" and "Renaissance Exercise".) Super Slow involves the combination of very slow speeds of lifting and lowering the weight, along with the general principles of the High intensity training approach advocated by Arthur Jones.
http://www.seriousstrength.com/site/
I haz got testimonials from Famous Infomercialer!
So Fred doesn't like you, Nigeepoo? ;-)
BTW, how much Vit C is in one forkful of sauerkraut?
Nigel, I thought the only reason that people put on weight is because of excess calories and the only way to lose weight is to be in a calorie deficit, so why does the macro-nutrient compoisition of Jimmy's diet matter?
What points are you trying to make Nige?
If you want a serious discussion, why not unblock Fred?
With Fred, there can be no serious discussion.
Been there, done that. Twice. Not doing it again!
P.S. You're white-listed.
Nutritional Ketosis:-
1) Doesn't increase loss of fat mass.
2) Increases loss of muscle mass.
3) Sends LDL-C & LDL-P through the roof.
4) Sends 2 - 4 hour PP TG's through the roof. See http://nigeepoo.blogspot.co.uk/2014/06/ultra-high-fat-80-diets-good-bad-and.html
5) Probably causes impaired cognitive function (from my "debates" with Fred).
Is that enough points?
See my reply to John Mason.
P.S. You're white-listed.
Nigel, why is it that you are only interested in hearing from people who agree with your point of view. A discussion means getting multiple peoples opinions and then deciding for yourself which one is right. I accept your point of view but I also believe Ketosis can work for many people and as far as I am concerned if somebody is feeling healthier and their markers are getting better then it can't be that bad. Please stop white-listing people with differing opinions otherwise you are going to have a one sided discussion, which is not helpful to anybody...
Jen,
Are you suffering from some kind of VLCVHF-induced delusional state?
John Mason & Sam Feltham totally disagree with me! Isn't it bleedin' obvious from what they wrote?
"Please stop white-listing people with differing opinions..."
If this isn't proof positive of impaired cognitive function, I don't know what is.
P.S. You're now white-listed!
If you go bat-shit on me and start flooding my blog with comments, I'll black-list you so fast, your feet won't touch the ground! Savvy?
All can tell you is that when I dropped the grains and the refined carbs and increased high quality fats in my diet my weight dropped. My desire was health not weight loss, I ended up achieving both (health and weight loss).
I believe you. Are you eating a diet containing 80% of total energy from fat, though? Somehow, I doubt it!
Even the Eskimos, Sami, Masai, Samburu, Tokelauans etc only get ~50% of their total energy from fats.
To demonstrate to you the effect of these people's extreme diets on their cognitive function, see https://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn/posts/10152227780827864 It's not a pretty sight!
P.S. You're now white-listed.
Wow. Martin Levac! Whatever happened to that dude?! Thanks for the flashback Nigel. Sometimes I think I must be misremembering and that they WEREN'T so adamant about carbs required for fat storage.
Jen, knowing Nige for a decade, I can tell you he does not seek an audience sycophants, he's happy, to discuss things with folk of opposing views.
I think that Martin Levac must have been abducted by aliens and used as a template to churn out all of the other VLC nutters! ;-) :-D
Whatever happened to LynMarie Daye?
Skyler Tanner, Dr. B G and Dr. Art Ayers are still going strong.
Ian,
You're talking to yourself! These people came here for one purpose only, which was to leave a comment and when that comment was not instantaneously approved, go back to https://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn/posts/10152227780827864 to bitch and moan and accuse me of lying about white-listing, 'cos they thought that white-listing worked retrospectively ('cos they're a bunch of idiots who can't read simple instructions!).
I've invited them back here to discuss stuff, but they're not interested in having any kind of meaningful exchange of views.
Nige said: "To my eyes, nutritional ketosis is good for absolutely nothing."
Question: What about the observations [described in the papers below] that the principal ketone (ß-OHB) has shown promise in being of benefit in a number of neurologic disorders [e.g., Alzheimer's and Parkinson's disease?]
[George Cahill]: " a chemical agent, ß-OHB, that has played such a major role in man's survival may be expected to have actions other than simply calories. When nature has such a beneficial substance, it may become pleiotropic through evolution with other survival advantages. Insulin and thyroid hormones are excellent hormonal examples..."
Don't the potential benefits of ß-OHB for neurologic disorders deserve a valuation of ketogenic levels of carb restriction as something above "good for absolutely nothing?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2194504/pdf/tacca00002-0213.pdf
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store/10.1080/152165401753311780/asset/713803796_ftp.pdf?v=1&t=hy20wt6v&s=682f9fdd9ad12adddddaadc4ddd5de4d30031224
Jimmy Moore still uses that old photo of when he was the slimmest. That is deceitful. Maybe without ketosis he would have gone back to his highest weight, who knows. He obviously needs to decrease calories and do some weight lifting.
Hi Sue,
I hope that you're not poking fun at Jimmy Moore. Deceit, deceit, deceit. That seems to be an ongoing theme with the VLCVHF community.
I think that Jimmy is too mired in the Taubesian fantasy of "You can be as gluttonous as you like...etc" to change his ways. I hope I'm wrong.
Anyway, welcome to my blog. I didn't realise that you'd never commented here before. You are now white-listed.
No poking fun at Jimmy! Glad to be white-listed (I admit I didn't know what that meant)!!
Hello. I guess you could get a third party to moderate some sort of debate between you and him. Then neither side can have control of the conversation, and you can feel free to point out any logical inconsistencies after you have a chance to review everything that was said during the debate.
It looks like she just didn't know what white-listing was.
I'm talking about the benefit of ß-OHB with respect to avoiding/preventing Alzheimer's or Parkinson's disease in the first place--not just as a therapeutic treatment applicable to already established cases:
"ß-OHB...has protected neuronal cells in tissue culture
against exposure to toxins associated with Alzheimer's
or Parkinson's." [George Cahill; citation above]
Not to imply that these neurologic disorders are caused by a lack of ketones [!], but "protection against" suggests the potential to help avoid/prevent the DEVELOPMENT of Alzheimer's or Parkinson's.
As you know, nutritional ketosis doesn't require an intake of 80%E from fat:
"...strictly speaking, any diet with less than 100g/day of
carbohydrate will cause ketosis to develop to some degree
(more ketones will be generated as carbs are lowered."
[Lyle McDonald]
An Atkin's "maintenance" level of carb restriction (say, 90g/day carbs) could therefore provide a fairly palatable and tolerable diet that
would permit at least a modest degree of these beneficial substances.
That is: one wouldn't need to eat a stick of Kerrygold washed down with a pint of heavy cream at each meal.
I'm not myself currently playing with a ketogenic diet, but because this "superfuel" (as Cahill called ß-OHB) apparently provides protection from the toxins that would otherwise lead to these neurologic disorders, nutritional ketosis doesn't look to me like a case of "good for absolutely nothing."
Hi Bryan,
Sorry to keep you waiting, but I was having a much-needed snooze. This heat-wave is knocking me out.
Having debated with Fred three times now, I'm certain that he's not the slightest bit interested in any evidence that I show him.
Have you read the Guest post on denialism? Fred uses every item listed in that post.
P.S. You're now white-listed.
I don't know what was going through her mind when she wrote that comment. Oy!
What worries me about NK is that it's poorly controlled.
Are you considering spending the rest of your life in ketosis, in the hope that your brain will be protected from degenerative diseases?
What are these "toxins associated with Alzheimer's
or Parkinson's"?
Blue Zone populations seem to be relatively free from degenerative brain diseases. Maybe the secret is keeping serum insulin low (which can be achieved on a diet of 70%E from natural carbohydrates).
While ketones enhance mental faculties in people who have degenerative brain diseases, they don't seem to enhance the mental faculties of the VLCVHF dieters that I am engaging in debate. The opposite seems to be the case.
I hope this Fred guy accepts me on FB so I can comment. LOL.
I don't engage with "odd" people (to put it more nicely) in other areas, so I guess I am a little biased. My mind is boggled by some of the comments made by VLCVHF'ers on Fred Hahn's FB page. Recent commenters in this post are from his "camp". I have no idea what they think they're doing. They leave 1 or 2 comments here, then slag me off on Fred's FB page with no intention of returning here.
The bit that's worrying me about NK is "The high-fat ketogenic diet used in childhood epilepsy may not be
suitable for use in adults because of its atherogenic potential;"
While ketones may offer neuroprotection, it doesn't explain the low rates of degenerative brain diseases in populations with high carb %E from tubers, veggies etc.
Can't you leave comments? Fred hasn't exactly "accepted" me lol, but I can currently leave comments. For how much longer, I don't know. I'm really pushing my luck, there!
Hi Nigel, do you have any posts you can point me to about achieving low serum insulin on a 70%E natural carb diet? Were any of the populations studied European? And does it matter if someone has genes that may predispose to diabetes?
Also, what do you think about the mixed diet of basically moderate fat and moderate carb? That seems to be a diet that many people naturally lean towards when given the option, since it's easily achieved just by eating 'real foods' to taste.
I've just been reading some of your Vitamin D and melanoma posts . . interesting stuff!
I listened to the Fredrick Hahn interview, I thought he came across pretty well, especially considering the interviewer seemed unprepared later on in the conversation.
What I found amazing was the interviewer also claimed to be doing the same lifestyle choice the Mr. Hahn had selected, but he did not look a well fit man, where as Mr. Hahn did.
The one statement he made that stood out like a sore thumb, was his remark on
an hour and half to solve the obesity problem. Project management maybe isn't one of his skills. Overall though, I thought he made his case well.
You're up early! So am I, as I needed a call of nature!
Fredrick Hahn may look "fit" relative to Howard Harkness, but he has posted recent pictures of himself during our "spat", and his physique isn't good when compared to other bodybuilders of his age. As I post on muscletalk.co.uk, I get to see a lot of bodybuilders' bodies! ;-)
When shown a picture of a BB'er with a better physique than him, Fred Hahn always comes up with the same excuses as to why it's invalid - black man, younger man, steroid user. He falsely accuses people of steroid use, when Androgenic Anabolic Steroids are used mostly by people who are trying to win a competition & by youngsters, not by mature, amateur BB'ers.
His posture during the interview was poor, as he was sitting round-shouldered and slouching.
People who think that they have "the solution" to the obesity problem haven't thought things through properly and are somewhat deluded, as the obesity problem has a large number of contributory factors. It's not the carbs (not exactly, anyway)!
I know Fred Hahn very well, and have been friends since our 15 year olds were infants. I have trained with Fred, accepted advice from Fred, and enjoyed vigorous debates and discussions with Fred. We are neighbors and close friends.
Fred is a lot of things, but a "liar" is absolutely the furthest thing from who he is as a person. In fact, Fred is honest to a fault, and anyone who makes any claims to the contrary is someone who should be aggressively ignored. I did not read the entire of the above, but your claims of intellectual dishonesty and the peddling of "pseudo-science" is unfounded and false. There is always disagreement in the scientific community, and to dismiss someone whose views (based on his reading of the available evidence) diverge from "conventional wisdom" should be done at your own risk.
While some of Fred's views on nutrition and exercise may buck prevailing orthodoxy (aka baloney), I can say that he absolutely practices exactly what he preaches, always has a great deal of research and due diligence behind his recommendations, and is certainly the healthiest 50-something man I know. Following his guidance has made me personally healthier and stronger (and somewhat lighter) than I've been at any other time in my life (I'm 42). I will also add that from my experience he has always been willing to adjust his views when new evidence arises, as anyone who is on the cutting edge must be willing to do.
In short, this post is silly and people should not listen to you.
Hello Nicholas,
"I know Fred Hahn very well, and have been friends since our 15 year olds
were infants. I have trained with Fred, accepted advice from Fred, and
enjoyed vigorous debates and discussions with Fred. We are neighbors and
close friends."
Your comments may be a little biased, in that case.
"Fred is a lot of things, but a "liar" is absolutely the furthest thing
from who he is as a person. In fact, Fred is honest to a fault, and
anyone who makes any claims to the contrary is someone who should be
aggressively ignored."
Fred stated in https://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn/posts/10152227780827864
"Nigel Kinbrum is a coward. He enjoys poking fun at people, but blocks
them from commenting..."
That's more than one lie. That's why I called him a liar. Therefore, your statement that he isn't a liar is false. "Aggressively ignoring" sounds like an oxymoron to me.
"I did not read the entire of the above, but your claims of intellectual
dishonesty and the peddling of "pseudo-science" is unfounded and false."
Why didn't you read the entire of the above. Do you prefer to comment from a position of ignorance? If you read the entirety of the above Facebook thread, you'll see that Fred doesn't back-up his opinions with evidence, unlike me. He resorts to name-calling and other logical fallacies. If you read http://nigeepoo.blogspot.co.uk/2014/06/guest-post-science-versus-pseudoscience.html , you'll see that Fred's 80%E fat diet meets all of the criteria for pseudoscience.
"There is always disagreement in the scientific community..."
See http://nigeepoo.blogspot.co.uk/2014/06/guest-post-denialism-as.html , Item 3. I now have the measure of you, Mr Miller.
"and to dismiss someone whose views (based on his reading of the available evidence) diverge from "conventional wisdom" should be done at your own risk."
I have criticised Fred's 80%E fat diet on the grounds that it is atherogenic and have supported that assertion with dozens of peer-reviewed studies, many of them on humans. What is the risk in doing that?
"While some of Fred's views on nutrition and exercise may buck prevailing orthodoxy (aka baloney)..."
I definitely have the measure of you, Mr Miller!
"I can say that he absolutely practices exactly what he preaches..."
Good.
"always has a great deal of research and due diligence behind his recommendations..."
If he does, he keeps it well-hidden.
"and is certainly the healthiest 50-something man I know."
Are you his Doctor? Have you seen the insides of Fred's coronary arteries? Ditto his carotid arteries? Did you know that the marathon runner Brian Maxwell dropped dead from a heart attack at the age of 51?
"Following his guidance has made me personally healthier and stronger (and somewhat lighter) than I've been at any other time in my life (I'm 42)."
Resistance training tends to do that. You can't claim that you're healthier, though (unless you had a medical condition that's now gone as a result of the training).
"I will also add that from my experience he has always been willing to adjust his views when new evidence arises, as anyone who is on the cutting edge must be willing to do."
That's not the impression I got from my debates with him. He's very dogmatic, and rejects all evidence that contradicts his dietary beliefs.
"In short, this post is silly and people should not listen to you."
Thank you for your opinion. In short, your comment is riddled with pseudoscientific thinking. I can see why you & Fred are friends.
Unless you are God and are somehow able to stop people from reading my blog, the last part of your sentence is utterly ludicrous. That doesn't surprise me at all. I'm guessing that you are eating a ketogenic diet. That would explain your muddled thought processes.
Regards, Nigel Kinbrum
Oh wow, an online anecdote! Please read Fred's online commentary on various blogs and decide whether he is willing to adjust his views with new evidence presented to him.
Fred Hahn is even considered a zealot in paleo circles. That says a lot.
If your comment is aimed at Nicholas S. Miller, you just wasted a few minutes typing. He's not coming back!
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