Thursday 8 March 2012

How stuff works, Part 2.

I'm the kind of person that likes to analyse everything to death (and make lists).

1) Here's what I wrote on Synthesis: Low-Carb and Food Reward/Palatability, and Why Calories Count:-
"I’m going to stick my neck out here and state that fat, sedentary people do better on low-carb diets because:-

Fat, sedentary people have severe muscular insulin resistance.
This results in chronic hyperinsulinaemia and acute hyperinsulinaemia on eating carbs (which causes lethargy & increased sedentariness).
Chronic hyperinsulinaemia impairs the Phase I insulin response.
This impairs the stability of the blood glucose control system, resulting in large fluctuations in blood glucose level on eating carbs.
A rapidly-falling blood glucose level causes severe hunger pangs (I’ve experienced this under medical supervision).
Severe hunger pangs cause overeating, resulting in increased fatness.
GOTO 1

Low-carb diets reduce the large fluctuations in blood glucose level. Once normal blood glucose control has been restored by bodyfat loss & exercise, low-carb diet is no longer required."

I added a hot-link that wasn't in the original comment. Thanks to Sam Knox for linking to that study.

Lethargy & increased sedentariness result in very few calories burned (BMR/RMR + TEF). Eliminating (lethargy & increased sedentariness) greatly increases calories burned without conscious effort (BMR/RMR + TEF + TEA + NEAT/SPA). This is why people on low-carb diets can eat more and still lose weight. The Energy Balance Equation still applies.


2) I've noticed that people conflate Food Tastiness with Food Reward. Here's my opinion:-

Excessive reward = Moreish. What your food tastes like is only vaguely relevant. Avoid eating moreish foods, unless you're a body-builder who's trying to bulk.

Here's what I wrote on Food Reward: “There’s Always Room For Dessert”:-
"I believe that obesity is physiological AND neurological (the proportions varying from person to person).

For example, one chocolate doesn’t disturb my blood glucose & insulin, but I still crave another. And another. Ad nauseam."

Physiological cravings take hours to kick-in.
Neurological cravings take seconds to kick-in.

Emily Deans wrote:-
"Multiple times I’ve used naltrexone (an opiate blocker) to stop binge eating. The cravings go away. It only takes a few weeks. It’s a nice way to undo addiction/reward without starving someone… not FDA approved."

That's pretty damning evidence for the existence of Food Reward. How can naltrexone block something that doesn't exist?

Finally Monsieur, a waffer-thin mint.

28 comments:

LeonRover said...

"Nothing exceeds like excess".

Here is a comment I left on ramplingsof acarnivore -

I can resist everything except temptation.

- Oscar Wilde, "Lady Windermere's Fan"

The only way to get rid of a temptation is to yield to it.

OSCAR WILDE, The Picture of Dorian Gray

"Et ne nos inducas in temptationem,
sed libera nos a malo."

Pater Noster

"Watch and pray, that you enter not into temptation."

Matthew.

Nigel Kinbrum said...

Did you notice I mentioned you in my previous blog post? :-D

LeonRover said...

Hey Man (or should that be Dude?) - "High Five" but I prefer this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwNrmYRiX_o

Honourable mention - said with wry grin.

Us sharp Irish pricks have been around since Sheridan, Wilde etc. We also LOVE similar souls from elsewhere such as Basil Fawlty (sic).

Gotta cock the snook and give the fig.

Nigel Kinbrum said...

Nice! ;-D

I didn't know that prick could be a term of endearment, too!

Americans will never "get" us!

Jenna said...

Thanks for this "summary", quite simply helpful!

I have been anorexic, bulimic, a compulsive "binge eater" in the past, and I think things/issues are drawing to a close now, as I understand the literature more.

It's funny for me to read Woo's blog posts, she's clearly whip smart, and her ketogenic diet seems to have worked for her for quite some time; I on the other hand became anorexic eating that way; and all the feelings, the way she describes her energy expression; her extreme sensitivities; I felt like that too, and wish I could re-create in me. It was that feeling of energy/sensitivity which I think I have chased after, and has made it difficult for me to let go of the idea of a ketogenic diet as health promoting. Plus, I guess for vanity; I looked very good; model like...

I had thought that maybe I just hadn't been eating the right mineral ratio, or had food allergies (diary, etc), but the more I read the more it seems physiologically the last thing you would willingly put yourself through, I mean a ketogenic diet, for "optimal" health... First of all I had induced starvation; menses stopped, I had extreme insomnia, tiredness in muscles walking (quite painful), muscle cramp so painful I couldn't sleep, heart pain, fainting, severe depression, mood disturbance, falling asleep in the day, lots of energy (a bit hyperactive)... But I looked great! I was 18 at the time, and in Uni, I was so messed up about food, I had to quit 6 months in) - I mean no wonder I started to binge eat! Which did fortunately resolve the bought of anorexia, bar, the years of recovery (which included renewed bought' of anorexia, bulimia, binge eating- I don't think my eating disorder was about being "psychotic"/mentally deranged/borderline etc, but simply about not knowing who/what to believe, regarding nutritional advice/informations & the fact that I was run down metabolically/physiologically by damaging resultant behaviors of my diet & emotionally pissed off/frustrated/pulling hair outness).

Something that had me agreeing with FR, was the fact that when first on Atkins at 18, for over a year, at first, the "taste" ;) of fat was repulsive to me, I felt like heaving eating just small chunks of cheese/drinking coconut milk; I had always been averse to eating high fat foods (maybe because I was raised on a mostly whole food, vegetarian diet), but I think this reaction to high fat foods initially was actually physiological; I felt satiated eating to appetite on relatively small amounts of cheese etc. At the six month mark I had developed an addiction, would you believe for cheese! lol. When I started binge eating I was eating full blocks of cheese, and experiencing little satiation.

Jenna said...

When I had eventually recovered from Atkins experience no. 1. what did I do? I went back for more! I tried it numerous times, and I would fail. I do believe again, that my failure to adhere was physiological; I had no problem eating a load of fat, but I couldn't loose weight to my pre-anorexic levels of body fat.

Clearly eating a ketogenic diet works very well for some people, but it royally fucked me over! It kind of pisses me off actually, that the inability to stick to a ketogenic diet is perceived to be a result of not enough "tweaking", adherence "issues"; it can't possibly be because its not actually good for you, and your body is reacting negatively; rejecting it! I find this just as bankrupt as those who call fat people gluttons/slobs, and that being the reason they are, or become fat. It's stupid!

I remember reading PHD comments recently, where Paul makes the distinction that HC, is preferable for fertility etc, and LC, for longevity; it strikes me as a little strange that you would mimic a diet for longevity that effects fertility in the negative; I mean why are we here? Is it preferable to mimic something "unnatural"? I know the concept of "natural", is a bit problematic... which may be a problem in my reasoning.

I tried PHD diet, and the effect; severe acne! I have never had acne in my life.. just the odd spot for good measure... Sometimes I get the impression, "nutritional researchers" know a lot less than they think they do... I guess all these experiences I have had, have resulted in me being skeptical of "advice", and somewhat paradoxically in recognition, that I know, very little. lol.

Nigel Kinbrum said...

Hi Jenna,

Having an ED or S/H sucks. I know a couple of people who have had them for many years. I get the impression that ED & S/H sufferers have set themselves up as Judge, Jury & Executioner and have given themselves life sentences. I hope you're O.K.

Acne is a good sign - it means that you have hormones again! Things will settle down.

The older I get, the less I worry about what I eat.

Anyway, I hope that you're enjoying my blog.

Cheers, Nige

Jenna said...

Ha, I am recovered. No more ED!

"The older I get, the less I worry about what I eat."

That's what I'm aiming for. :)

"Acne is a good sign - it means that you have hormones again! Things will settle down."

Interesting. Thanks.

And apologies; on reflection my comment was a bit of a rant. lol.

Nigel Kinbrum said...

Jenna said...
"Ha, I am recovered. No more ED!"
Excellent!

""The older I get, the less I worry about what I eat."
That's what I'm aiming for. :)"
Excellent!

""Acne is a good sign - it means that you have hormones again! Things will settle down."
Interesting. Thanks."
You're welcome.

"And apologies; on reflection my comment was a bit of a rant. lol."
No problem. If ranting makes you feel better, then rant away, lol!

lightcan said...

OK, I'll keep no. 1 in mind. Tabula Rasa again.
Re no. 2, indeed, I don't eat moreish foods because of hunger, nothing to do with it, I eat them because my brain makes me. They do taste good though. When I'm full, it's harder, but not impossible.
The problem is withdrawal is going to be like mourning a loved one. As Stephan said "the brain adapts over time producing dependence and anhedonia. These changes can be difficult to reverse once established."

Nigel Kinbrum said...

"Re no. 2, indeed, I don't eat moreish foods because of hunger, nothing to do with it, I eat them because my brain makes me. They do taste good though. When I'm full, it's harder, but not impossible."
It's classic addiction behaviour. Marketeers have been relying on this for nearly a century to get people to buy crap that they don't need.

ItsTheWoo keeps telling me that food reward & moreishness is a load of old bollocks (because it has no effect on her) and that I'm incapable of grasping this fact. I won't back down!

Galina L. said...

I noticed in my case that the food rewarding properties of certain foods are connected with macro-nutrient content of my diet. It is a little wonder that Wooo doesn't believe into the food reward - she is eating LC diet. Ketogenic diet is mood and behavior altering, it puts me into the austerity mood when I enjoy being in control, more incline to do things, more motivated, move around more as opposite to relaxing and eating for pleasure. It is difficult to separate influences. In his last post SG blogged about some drags for mental conditions became FDA approved for obesity. His take on it "it means the brain is a central player in obesity."
From my experience, ketogenic diet completely recreated the effect of the drag Fenleptine retard (for by-polar, epilepsy, migraines) prescribed for me by neurologist . From my perspective it looks like the diet could be as powerful as a mind-altering drag. I doubt the existing of just one main influence, it looks like a self-feeding loop for me.

Nigel Kinbrum said...

"I noticed in my case that the food rewarding properties of certain foods are connected with macro-nutrient content of my diet. It is a little wonder that Wooo doesn't believe into the food reward - she is eating LC diet."
Stargazey is also eating LC/VLC diet but she *still* has to consciously restrict her food intake, otherwise she gains weight. Stargazey must *still* be getting some food reward on LC/VLC diet, otherwise she wouldn't subconsciously overeat.

The problem with Woo is she thinks that what applies to her applies to everybody else. Your experience is similar to Woos but not to mine or Stargazey's.

Galina L. said...

I also have to consciously restrict my food intake because I would like to eat food for pleasure and not because I am hungry. I am not talking about chips, candies or manufactured foods, eating some normal self-cooked meals more often than twice a day would be nice because eating is a pleasant relaxing activity. The degree of difficulty to restrain myself from doing so makes the difference for me because it is impossible to have an iron will-power all the time. I don't have to over-rule excessive hunger now . Food composition alters brain.

Nigel Kinbrum said...

O.K. So you're still getting *some* food reward on LC/VLC, but not as much as when you're eating "Crap-in-a-bag"?

It's still not Taubes' "Exercise as much gluttony as you like on proteins & fats".

Galina L. said...

No gluttony for me now. At the beginning of LC diet it was a period when limiting carbs was enough, not now. Luckily, I am in the maintenance phase now, but I had to keep finding new tricks to keep my weight loss going, and now I run out of it. I always resisted calories counting , but under the influence of the Wooo I went on the Fitday.com, and was astonished to find out my average food intake was just under 1300 calories a day during last 10 days. I am not hungry, just wouldn't mind to eat more often for fan. I conducted an experiment during Sunday breakfast and consumed that amount of LC food during one meal without any discomfort or nausea , and later in the day it didn't cause any drop in appetite, however next day I was slightly less interested in food.
I believe that the phenomenon of the food reward exists, but just blown out of proportion by SG. He is like a person who commented on the Hyperlipid blog (Jane , I think) who saw in every problem a copper deficiency. Very possibly such problem exists, but hardly it explains everything else what is going on. Food so powerfully affects brain and behavior, that even I can't stomach SG's declaration that brain is the single mastermind in everything concerning food. Tell it to somebody who behaves irrationally during hypo-glycemic episode, or can't sleep normally because of low carbs consumption, or me who found the effect of ketogenic diet to be identical to the effect of powerful psychotic drag (small dose of it, but still..). On another hand, the person who didn't sleep normally would have poor food intake control next day. Things are interconnected and complicated.

Nigel Kinbrum said...

"I believe that the phenomenon of the food reward exists, but just blown out of proportion by SG."
SG does acknowledge insulin as a cause of obesity, but he doesn't appear to believe in falling BG (in the normal range) stimulating appetite, which I do.

Appetite is controlled by the brain, whether it's by reward (inside the brain) which is rapid, falling BG, or any of the many hormonal signals (outside the brain), which are slow.

Galina L. said...

Just a small clarification - I have been eating self-cooked meals (not cookies and fries)in a grandma style all my life except infrequent occasions when I travel or some another non-standard situation. I did't change crappy diet on a real food one, but on real LC food.

Nigel Kinbrum said...

Gotcha. So you went from home-cooked real food high-carb diet to home-cooked real food low-carb diet.

No Crap-in-a-bag!

Galina L. said...

I react on food differently now, some abnormal obsession about food and hunger disappeared, I think I could increase carb content and continue eating twice a day without much hunger increase.
I think being adapted to exercising in a fasted state affects stability of a sugar level on a different level than just being adapted to a ketosis, but it definitely causes a physiological IR.

Nigel Kinbrum said...

That's progress!

If you want to introduce "safe starches" to your diet, white Basmati rice and sweet potatoes are pretty safe.

Galina L. said...

I am a better person when I am in ketosis, at least until my hormonal levels would be stable. Reading other people comments, I doubt everybody would say so, even though a lot of ladies my age complain about horrible moods, hot flashes, brain fog, insomnia.

Nigel Kinbrum said...

Make a small change, allow yourself to stabilise and let us know how you get on.

Sanjeev said...

> Stargazey must *still* be getting some food reward on LC/VLC diet, otherwise she wouldn't subconsciously overeat
________
we still need more research into how reward interacts with habit and learning.

Do levels of reward create habits - forcing the organism to habituate to a certain level of intake?

If so, do other parts of the brain/body system maintain habitual intake (calories or fullness or some other brain/body measurement) when the reward values change?

Reward theory is looking better and better to me the more I study it but it's far from the entire story.

Nigel Kinbrum said...

Sanjeev said...
"we still need more research into how reward interacts with habit and learning."
Hopefully, Stephan & co are working on that.

"Do levels of reward create habits - forcing the organism to habituate to a certain level of intake?"
If food is having similar effects on the brain to Class-A drugs, I'd say "Yes".

"If so, do other parts of the brain/body system maintain habitual intake (calories or fullness or some other brain/body measurement) when the reward values change?"
I haven't the foggiest idea, but I know a man who might!

"Reward theory is looking better and better to me the more I study it but it's far from the entire story."
Absolutely. There *is* also insulin, lol!

ProudDaddy said...

I'm almost done going through your archive, having taken some time off for the diet soda study at SuppVersity. I'm still impressed.

Here's a few comments, for what they're worth, on this blog:

As you say, everyone is different. Hypoglycemia does not make ME hungry. On the contrary, I have to force myself to eat some glucose. On a more general point, obese diabetics, to my knowledge, are just as hungry as obese non-diabetics. Now, I realize you are saying rapidly falling serum glucose levels in people with normal glucose metabolism is when hunger strikes, but I'd like a few more references before being convinced.

As for the success of locarb, I sometimes wonder if it isn't primarily due to the satiety of protein. I also wonder if the satiety of protein might be equal to even carbs after the thermic effect is cranked in.

ProudDaddy said...

Oops, senior moment on previous comment! Obviously, protein satiety would be even greater when adjusted for the higher thermic effect.

Nigel Kinbrum said...

I'm at an all-day music festival today & Sun and I'm going to a gig on Mon. Will reply more fully when I have a few billion free nanoseconds.