Thursday, 25 September 2014

Calcium shift: An interesting hypothesis.

More serendipity! Billy the k left a comment that piqued my curiosity.
From The atheroma 'junk' in the media is cholesterol + calcium in older people.

From Aging and calcium as an environmental factor. (emphasis mine)
"The consequences of calcium deficiency might thus include not only osteoporosis, but also arteriosclerosis and hypertension due to the increase of calcium in the vascular wall, amyotrophic lateral sclerosis and senile dementia due to calcium deposition in the central nervous system, and a decrease in cellular function, because of blunting of the difference in extracellular-intracellular calcium, leading to diabetes mellitus, immune deficiency and others.

I highlighted amyotrophic lateral sclerosis in red, as many Facebook friends have been having buckets of water & ice cubes tipped over themselves to raise money for research into this horrible & ultimately fatal condition.

So, what prevents & reverses migration of calcium from hard tissues to soft tissues?
Clue: It carboxylates osteocalcin in bone matrix Gla proteins. Yes, it's Vitamin K2.

See also Calcium, parathyroids and aging. N.B. 50iu/kg bodyweight/day of Vitamin D3 significantly lowers parathyroid hormone.


billy the k said...

CarbSane's Sept.12, 2012 posting—
—consisted of a generalized bashing of Weston Price [and supporters] with many commenters chiming in to further the ridicule factor.

Kade Storm A.K.A. the Hedonist [with whom I have often found areas of agreement] didn't think much of the fat soluble vitamins A, D, E, & K₂—
suggesting that their advocates were what he called "food cult merchants." [receiving 3 up-votes for this opinion].

Responding to Kade Storm, Lighthouse Keeper also didn't think much of Weston Price's "X-factor"—Vitamin K₂—which he called "the mysterious super nutrient", and also employed the term "the cult of the fat soluble vitamins."
To which I suggested that Chris Masterjohn's paper on K₂ —
—might possibly persuade them that K₂ may not be as irrelevant to health & well-being as their comments suggested.  But I forgot to add 
that Nigel the k had also posted on the importance of K₂—FIVE YEARS AGO:

Nigel Kinbrum said...

Unfortunately, nobody read my blog five years ago! :-/

Kade Storm A.K.A. Hedonist said...

Man, talk about drama . . .

This is what I mean by dogma gone astray. I'm addressing those who literally make the argument: "Take this! THIS will solve EVERYTHING. It's not working?! No! You're doing it wrong!" Just because something is good, doesn't mean that people can't become reductive about its merits. If bothered to quote the full comment, it would make a bit more sense, but oh well. . .

Doesn't stop the selective quoting.

And you'd be surprised how often Nigel and I have had a chat about K2. And he knows my views, it's good, but it isn't magic. It won't solve everything.

Why is it that when I address one group of people who're singularly fixated on something and capitalising on it--rather literally--that somehow that address now extends to those who have actually benefited from that 'something' in question?

As for the people who upvoted me that time . . . shame on them! It's not like I was presenting a nuanced argument and addressing both sides of the issue. [/sarcasm]

Nigel Kinbrum said...

Drama (81 comments and rising) is FAR more interesting than science (4 comments, including THIS one :-/ ).

Calcium shift is important, but where atheromas are concerned, so is cholesterol!

billy the k said...

Kade—I was very impressed with the research and analyses of the nutrition writers of the 1920's & 30's, and so while I remain guilty of continuing to agree with them in regarding milk [and its products] as a more valuable food than other contemporary commenters seem to do (including—I gathered—yourself), I'm pretty sure that I didn't claim that milk was "magic", or that having it "will solve everything."

(I love to watch magicians, but as an atheist I don't believe in magic.)

The Calcium-shift phenomenon appears to have solid empirical support
[see the Fujita papers above] and I would have thought that as a guy who has previously said [to Nige] that he was interested in "healthy longevity", you might have agreed that whereas milk [and its products] are rich in the two primary factors (calcium & Vitamin K₂) that will PREVENT the Calcium-shift phenomenon [and the parade of pathologies secondary 
to it]—that maybe this food may be of more than ordinary value in regard to enjoying that "healthy longevity."

But if you disagree, that's fine with me.  It does, however, seem a stretch to suggest that Nige and yours truly are in the business of proselytizing for the Cult of the Magic Milk.

 "Magic?"  No, not magic:
Man cannot live by bread protein carbs fat MILK alone.

Nigel Kinbrum said...

People with ApoE4/E4 have got to avoid full-fat milk, as cholesterol is their biggest problem, not calcium.

There are, of course, pungent beans in a mucus sauce for such people! :-)

Kade Storm A.K.A. Hedonist said...

I know you didn't, and that goes back to what I was saying earlier: that comment was directed are a very specific group of people. Doesn't include those who might benefit. And I can assure you, as someone interested in 'healthy longevity', I have seen substantial reasons to both consider and avoid milk that Nigel's done the task of covering in the comment below . . . and there are more reasons that go beyond that as well.

But back to this completely outlandish assumption that you and Nige are being presented as Cult of Magic Milk. Just as back in that comment thread, and here, once again, nothing of the sort was asserted.

You, or Nigel =/= to the individuals capitalising on 'the one food to rule them all' approach.

Kade Storm A.K.A. Hedonist said...

Or a pill if you can't have the food. Whatever.

billy the k said...

From yum to yuck!

Kade Storm A.K.A. Hedonist said...

I have at least four friends who've grown up in the far east who'd disagree with you, but I guess it's a case of different strokes for different folks.

billy the k said...


Kade Storm A.K.A. Hedonist said...

Let's drink to that . . . you get the milk!

billy the k said...

I've got some cold Jever Pilsner in the fridge–no doubt lacking in calcium & vitamin K₂—but I'm told it has some B-vitamins, and those German hops must have some health benefits in addition to tasting great...

Nigel Kinbrum said...

I'll drink to that! Make mine a red J2O with ice & a slice.

Nigel Kinbrum said...

I've read that Orientals won't eat Stilton, as, to them it's mouldy milk.

weilasmith said...

how can we ascertain if we need to supplement with K2? i eat a lot of kerrygold cheese and butter. do i get enough from those sources? after someone starts supplementing with k2, how can they know if the supplementation is having a positive effect? i could see if i had high blood pressure and after 3 months of supplementation my numbers were better- that would be a kind of monitoring. but i don't have high blood pressure. so how do we monitor whether k2 is helping?

Nigel Kinbrum said...

The amount required to drastically lower the RR for various diseases is not a lot (in the Rotterdam Study, the high K2 group were getting ~50ug/day), so your Kerrygold cheese will almost certainly provide that. Did you read the Vitamin K post?

To cure diseases e.g. osteoporosis requires a larger amount. As I had osteoporosis, I am continuing to supplement with K2, at a lower dose (5mg/day) than I used to treat it (15mg/day).

As hypertension is multi-factorial, it wouldn't be a reliable indicator of K2 status anyway.

weilasmith said...

thx, nigel :)

Gliter Jone said...

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